Two Way Hard Three | Las Vegas Casino & Design Blog

I still have about 20 minutes left on the episode, but I think this one really shows how much Jeff Simpson's voice is missed. I think you 3 are so much alike in age and education that you tend to think alike also. This can create a situation where you essentially speak from one viewpoint.
I think your opinions regarding the D are an example of that. I thought your unhappiness with the project was due to your personal perspectives, which is perfectly fine. However, I thought they were all based on the same Strip-centric, mid-thrities point of view. And, without a contrary perspective, it started to sound lke you were piling on. I think a commitment of over $100 million to the Downtown market deserves more benefit of the doubt than what I heard as "I don't like the name, the font or old slot machines, so I'm not gonna like it".
I have differing opinions regarding the D, but I think they should be in another comment.
To be clear, I do think this is the best podcast on the internet and you 3 are the smartest men alive, I just think you need a differing viewpoint in order to keep the show as well rounded as it was when Simpson was alive.
And I'm not hinting that you ask me.

Posted by Hunter

Jeff,

I have a few comments in response to your comment:

I agree that Jeff will always be missed. That said, he often surprised me with his thinking and I'm not totally sure he would have disagreed with us on the larger point (that the D is a pretty boring project). Of course we don't know but I've been thinking about this since we recorded the episode and I think the thing that really leaves me non-plussed is that the plan does not feel bold. It doesn't feel creative (the fact that the logo comes out of Microsoft Word does not help). It's the most obvious thing they could have done and that's why, while it will probably be a nicer place when they are done (hard not to be, the Fitz is a dump), I can't get excited about it. This is the same reason that the stuff MGM is doing recently is boring. It's obvious.

I don't think I agree with you that the three of us have the same 'Strip-centric, mid-thirties point of voice'. I don't know exactly what the first part means but I definitely don't feel like I'm anti-Downtown. I do stay on The Strip more often but I do stay downtown and I visit there fairly often.

But hey, the great thing about having comments is that if you disagree, you can share that with us and other listeners.

It sounds like you are excited about the D but you don't say why. If that's true, love to hear what about it has you excited.

The problem with the D is not the name (see M resort). They just don't have enough money to really transform the property. We have already been disappointed by half measures at the Plaza. Tropicana got closer to transforming, but they are still struggling to get over the hump.

I think the Golden Gate effort is much more interesting. The casino is small enough that a little money can go a long way. The new suites could be a really intriguing new alternative for downtown.

Just thought I'd share the link to the Kindle version of Tap City. It doesn't come up as an option when you search for it like usual. You have to specifically search under Kindle books. Anyway, a short cut:

http://goo.gl/v1ZlZ

I'm anxious to read it. Thanks for the recommendation, Dr. Dave.

I have very mixed emotions regarding the D and the activities of the Stevens brothers in Las Vegas. I do not claim to be a student, or expert, but I am a pretty good amateur observer. Let me start babbling bullshit.

For some reason I have always been a fan of the downtrodden or "past it's prime". The Stevens' first investments in Las Vegas were in the Golden Gate and Riviera. Both of which fit my interest area. I have listened many times to the Global Gaming Magazine podcast with Golden Gate owner Mark Brandenburg, which describes the Stevens' introduction and initial investment in the Golden Gate. It is a good interview and I suggest anyone check it out at ggbmagazine.com. As time went on I noticed that they increased their ownership in the Golden Gate to over 50% and also noticed that Derek Stevens was becoming the public face of ownership.

A couple things that I kinda wondered about were the Stevens' purchase of the Las Vegas 51's AAA baseball team (since a Triple A franchise sells for $5 million plus nowdays and, from what I can tell, they don't seem to have done much of anything to link it with their other Las Vegas investments). And their purchase of approximately 10% of Riviera stock (which they did at the height of the boom and didn't appear to be diminshed after the Riviera parent company filed bankruptcy). They both made me start to wonder if the Stevens' were focused Las Vegas casino investors, or rich kids with a scattershot approach. The D rebrand hasn't done much to allay my concerns.

I don't like the D name and the font used. The D name because it appears to be a choice made out of frustration ("Screw it, I'm tired of the damned legal roadblocks to the my favorite choices!"), and the font because I think it is too close to the announced theme of the Downtown Grand and it's associated Mob Bar. I agree that it appears to be art deco and the art deco heyday is pre- WWII and the Las Vegas glory days are clearly post-WWII, IMO. The intent of the Downtown Grand makes sense, because of the proximity to the prewar Mob Museum, the D font does not.

Having said all that, I think the Fitzgerald's site has tremendous potential and has been denied reinvestment practically from the day Don Barden bought it. It is a solid layout, IMO, and was originally built (about 1980) at a time when design and construction standards began to improve. I think the period from 1955-1975 had the worst standards for construction design and materials. I like the idea of the "Classic slot area" on the 2nd floor because that isn't a very large space and will work nicely for the gimmick it is. Unlike Mr. Monster, I don't want to see the same new slot machines (Batman or American Idol, etc) in every casino I go to in Las Vegas. Without doubt, Sigma Derby is a crap-ass setup, with a subferior payout. But, it is a social experience unlike any other machines I know of, it's different, and just plain fun! My favorite machine in the world is the Munsters. One of the few left is at the El Cortez, down by the gift shop. Every trip we make to Las Vegas has to include a session on the Munsters machine. That always translates into buying a shirt and other stuff at the gift shop and a meal at Cafe Cortez, etc. We always wind up spending $100 in a couple hours at El Cortez and love every minute of it. I think that's the plan that will translate into dollars for the D.

I think that Fitzgerald's was a lame name and theme for the Downtown property and, as weak as the D is, it will still be an improvement. And the inherent positives of the property and depth of the Stevens' pockets will give it the ability to overcome the stumble of the D name. I admit I wonder if the Stevens' have taste, but I'm fully confident they can buy taste. Especially in a Downtown sense.

Posted by Hunter

Thanks for the comment.

The last sentence is interesting - and let's be honest, that's what most operators do. Very few (you could even argue if any do depending on how hard line you want to be) have great taste - it's all in the people that they hire.

If the D is another Plaza (aka another by-the-numbers casino renovation that could have been ordered out of CasinoGoodsWarehouse.com), then that will be a disappointment. That's sorta what I'm expecting. Will I be wrong? We'll see.

I think El Cortez has been very smart to be an old-school, semi-gritty but not gross place that has good odds, cheap food and interesting rooms (C.S.) That model could work elsewhere but I don't have faith. They have to prove it to me.

Posted by mike_ch

I don't think you guys are down on downtown, I don't think Tim & Michelle are down on downtown although the inner cynic in me wonders if Derek talked to Tim for a few minutes simply in hopes that it would keep Tim from giving it a "this sucks" rant to his listeners. Hunter enjoyed the El Cortez of all places and on my one trip there on a Friday night my group was somewhat uncomfortable with the crowd in and around there.

The D doesn't represent a change in anything that we can see except marketing, and it's web page suggests a place that isn't very proud of what it looks like. There's next to no pictures of what the actual property being advertised looks like, whereas Golden Nugget and the Fremont have photos of their exterior on their homepage, and the Plaza uses photos at least of their renovated areas. The D's website is full of stock photos of smiling models in places that aren't anywhere near Vegas, and their room page shows what appears to be a concept of a renovated room but a quick Yelp browse appears that I shouldn't expect a room like that if I reserve one in the short term.

They want to pull a Plaza sized effort without the business hit of telling anyone that something is closed or not running on all cylinders, and so for now it's a casual, marketing shift with a lot of dollars promised but none yet spent.

I am more excited about The D than the Downtown Grand, but that's because at least Derek probably can bankroll the things he's actually talking about. I'm not certain about the Grand and unless the property has changed ownership lately I'm even less excited, as the Lady Luck land has been an experiment of a private owner trying to pay all kinds of lip service to a City Council focused on downtown renovation that There Really Will Be Something Here Soon I Promise. I don't buy it, it didn't happen in the good days, and it won't happen now. I give it a 30% chance if they've changed owners recently. I give it a 0% chance if it's the same owner that's been keeping it in mothballs since it closed.

The completed vision of The D could at least happen, but Downtown Grand feels like one of Zappos's new neighbours promising to take the rotted-out RV on blocks out of the front yard. Lady Luck's carcass sat directly across from the old DTC terminal, and the adjacent park they tore out and closed because it attracted too many homeless during Oscar's War On Poverty, and the Old City Hall building. Tony Hsieh is going to walk out of his new property and see that garbage pile across the street, and so it would behoove the owners to at least blow some delusional smoke again.

Great episode. As an ode to Dr. Dave, I enjoyed it on my back patio smoking a fine cigar. Which leads to...

I'm looking forward to hearing how Revel's smoke-free status will affect property gaming revenues. Any conjecture on the next episode? That is a huge deal. So far, the theory (and there seems to be some proof behind it) is that non-smokinig gaming tanks revenue.

Per The D: I've been privy to some of what they are doing since last November (and even reported bits and pieces of it way back then). I've also already seen some of the new changes which are certainly improving the vibe of the place. At the end of the day, they aren't striving for class. It is safe to say that the Hunter/Chuck/Dr. Dave demo isn't exactly what they are after. The bottom floor is going to be the Golden Gate party on steroids. Remnants of The Fitz will be few and far between.

Speaking of the top floor: Legacy coin operated slots have been a huge draw at Cannery East. People have waited in line on the weekend to play them. I've still been known to this day to plop myself down at the ones (near the check-in desk) at Fremont (Hotel/Casino). There's something methodical about feeding the machine. Plus, the play is much slower so you can drink more free liquor while losing less. When you hit, the actual "ping, ping, ping" is still super-cool. When winning, I like digging my hands into all those coins. Granted, the first thing I do after cashing in is hit the restroom to wash up.

Playboy Club was not a failure. It was the 35'th highest ranking dayclub/nightclub (a nightclub list that also includes daytime F&B revenue if the venue is open during the day) in the U.S. last year. Not bad for a place without a dayclub component. I have to think someone will scoop it up.

@Jeff in OKC I didn't see this episode so much as "down on downtown" and that comes from someone who hits downtown nearly weekly when the weather is decent. Vegas Internet Mafia (VIM) and especially Vegas Gang analyze and critique the hell out of everything. I would have expected nothing less. They've ripped the Wynn website (certainly not a downtown thing). I remember back when Bellagio released the new room designs and VIM tore it apart (also not downtown).

You can't expect a group who pontificates for 15 minutes on Roger Thomas to have any love for a downtown joint getting a facelift that includes go-go dancers and loud music.

I do think (as Hunter as much admitted in his Tim Hundy interview) that VIM is suffering from "hotel construction fatigue". Nothing short of Echelon announcing that they are reviving construction with a $10 billion budget is really going to excite them.

It is unfortunate that without Jeff, the other three hosts are similar enough that they nearly always have the same thoughts. The show would probably do well with the addition of a real Las Vegan to replace Jeff. I respect, read, and enjoy Dr. Dave but the reality is that he's a Seattle/Denver kind of guy who lives in Las Vegas. If I put the over/under on how many times in the past five years he's grabbed a wad of cash at about 10 PM and gone out boozing and gambling to the wee hours of the morning, I'd set the number at 1 (and bet the under).

Jeff was well informed in the business, but I get the feeling that he "walked the walk" when it comes to being someone taking part in the vices our fine city offers. That unique combination really does make a difference. I know the fact that I can read and analyze Vegas during the day then experience it often at night really adds to my ability to have insight. Like a case study with thousands of trials. Jeff had that.

Side Note: I'm not campaigning for the job. Chuck talked about how it would take 8 months to re-do VT. Guess what kind of project I'm involved in right now... plate is full. (HTML 5 would be my pick of the week... kick ass).

@mike_ch You were at the El Co on a Friday night and were uncomfortable with the crowd? Dude... too many hipsters headed to Insert Coin(s) or something? Especially on a Friday night, the crowd is about a least scary as Fremont is going to get. If that was too much for you, I'd suggest you stick to The Strip!

Good stuff, good episode, lots to think about.

Posted by mike_ch

Ted, it wasn't me so much as my baby boomer father. He felt he was surrounded in the casino by people waiting to die. There were some seriously old fossils in there, and this comes from people who frequent the Rampart where people in their 50s can feel young. The "habit gamblers spending their social security money" vibe felt strong. There was some food truck attraction outside that maybe pulled some of the regular Friday crowd away. He was uncomfortable until we crossed LVB and were back at Neonopolis and the big beer glass. I wanted to look into Insert Coins but the Fremont East atmosphere was making him unhappy. *shrug*

My walkaway from the El Co (didn't go to Cabana) was it reminded me of an old brothel, and I'd probably appreciate it more in the day.

As far as 'outlook' or whatever you want to put it, I think of Chuck as someone who has "walked the walk" as you put it, but he also appreciates art and just putting up four walls and some tables isn't enough to impress him. I don't think Dr Dave is a "Denver kind of guy" but I think he also puts a certain amount of fairness and consideration in his words, if only because his position at the University puts him in a lot of close contact with the people who make the industry's gears turn without actually working inside of it.

Jeff had been to a lot of places and was willing to say something was completely bonkers if he felt it warranted it. You can feel the guys (Chuck especially with his comments on Steve Wynn a few episodes back) trying to carry that torch without losing their own voice in the process.

I wouldn't mind hearing more people on the show (perhaps a revolving door of guest spots) though obviously nobody who is likely to join the panel is going to be able to replace Jeff's experience.

I think I agree with mike_ch that I wouldn't hind hearing more voices either. I think Hunter, Chuck, and Dr. Dave make the show and are the Vegas Gang, but I'm so used to hearing four voices on the show that it almost feels like it's missing something. No one can replace Jeff Simpson, but maybe in time you guys can think to bring in guests or find another strong voice to the show.

That being said, I really enjoyed this episode. I'm definitely excited that Fitzgeralds is getting some money put into it. I recognize that it won't be anything revolutionary, but any improvement to downtown is something I support.

@mike_ch I understand and stand corrected on your El Co comments. I misread or misunderstood. What popped into my mind was the usual "scary downtown crazies" reputation that did plague the area for years. Yes, the El Co has been a haven for retirees for a long time.

Let me elaborate on my comments about the current gang minus Jeff, because I could see how it could be taken in the wrong way:

I'm a huge Dr. Dave fan. Have his blog in my RSS feed. Read everything he writes. Great insight from the academic and historical perspective. Dr. Dave talks about his morning runs and Birkenstock-style footwear (hence the Seattle/Denver reference).

Jeff would talk about his comp offers (if the mailers he was getting were fewer or not), things like that. Which means Jeff was wearing out the carpet around a few craps tables on a regular basis.

There is a perspective gained from a thousand exposures to the Las Vegas Strip and downtown. You see things, you hear things, you meet people who tell you how their trip is going. Jeff brought that nearly unparalleled immersion to the table.

LVA's Anthony Curtis would be an excellent replacement, but probably isn't available. (Never hurts to ask). He's probably spent more time on The Strip and downtown than any human in existence (excepting those who work for the properties).

I will pipe up and say that Vegas Gang seems to be missing (or not understanding) that downtown is going to be the biggest Vegas story of 2012 (baring anything really bad making news like a hotel burning down or something). Property after property has upgraded, is upgrading, or will be (Vegas Club and Binion's appear to be next). Fremont East is on an amazing roll (and plenty of credit to Dressen for being right on top of that one).

The entire local area is excited about it. Tourists are excited about it. My readers are expressing lots of excitement about it. VG seems to be going overboard in dismissing it. While I understand the VG mission is to be critical and pick stuff apart, you can't pretend like the biggest story of the year (in general) does not exist.

Posted by Hunter

Ted,

Are we listening to the same show? If you look at our topic trend, we've covered more Fremont stuff in the past year than in the first couple of years combined. Golden Nugget. Plaza. El Cortez. Golden Gate. D. Lady Luck. We've talked about all of them and in past years they wouldn't have rated a mention.

Yes, there is movement on Fremont projects. More visible than The Strip - hell, when Coolican interviewed me a few weeks back for a Sun piece, that was the focus of my comments - the next five years are going to be about renovations and with Strip room rates edging up, more customers will consider Downtown and they will find renovated rooms - if the operators are smart they will poach mid-level Strip customers that don't want to spend $300/night on a room. That doesn't mean that all the projects are good or interesting. Some will fail. Some will spectacularly fail. Just because the three of us agreed that the D seemed boring doesn't mean we are going overboard to 'dismiss it' or that we are ignoring the 'biggest story of the year'.

And while the Zappos hype is at fever pitch, I personally kinda doubt it's going to be as amazing a force as some have espoused and the local papers seem to hope. Tony Hsieh is a successful business man but he doesn't have magical powers. To achieve everything that they want will take a massive amount of work (remains to be seen), city cooperation (easy for now ; may not last), money (that part seems covered), and lots of luck (heh heh heh).

-H

Keep up the great work, guys. I suspect I am not alone in my belief that you do a great job dissecting the news of Las Vegas and gaming from three very unique perspectives. I miss Jeff, too. But I don't think his absence has detracted at all from the podcast or your individual writing. In fact, I think it has made each of you stretch to gain broader perspective and focus to achieve sharper insight. I also don't get how someone might think that you're dismissive of the downtown resurgence story -- just my two-cents worth.

opinions are sorta like assholes.

whomever has the most opinions, usually is the biggest asshole.

Please accept this comment as my resignation from the Vegas Gang, I'm happy to relinquish my seat at the not-so-round roundtable discussion to Ted Newkirk.

In honor of Ted Newkirk, I'm going to wear my underwear on my head for the rest of this week.

Who needs Anthony Curtis when we can have Ted Newkirk on the panel? host of the award winning podca... uh right he doesn't have any awards. or a friggin podcast.

I am Admiral Hunter Hillegas, and I haven't yet approved this message.

I just got an email from Jesus, he has decided that forevermore he would like to be called Ted Newkirk.

Love it when Chuck has afternoon apology scotch and speaks his mind!!

@Everyone - Points are well taken. I felt that you were being dismissive of a pretty significant project without looking at the context of downtown improvement. I felt there was a real point of view missing from the debate. I went around it the wrong way (stirring the pot a bit... something that you guys are no stranger to doing). My apologies.

You're so vain, you'll probably think this comment is about you.

Let me change the subject to the naming of the Downtown Grand. It was mentioned that there might be market confusion questions as it's name relates to MGM Grand. I wonder if the similarities elswhere in the Las Vegas casino market might neutralzie that argument? Specifically the Imperial Palace and Palace Station, as well as Main Street Station and the many Station owned casinos with Station in the name. Also, I would argue that the "Grand" portion of the name has become synonimous with "large and high class" inside the hospitality business for at least 75 years. Any thoughts?

The idea of Anthony Curtis as being in the same groove as the existing Vegas Gang is ludicrous. I'm not talking about someone having the same or differing opinions; that dude is something else entirely. His Vegas analysis and insight is about as deep as the kiddie pool at the Henderson Multigenerational Center. That was a good laugh, I needed that.

Also, I seem to remember the gang spending a good chunk of time covering the Plaza remake last year. Along with the nugget etc. To say they aren't giving the D a lot of credit since they are Roger Thomas fans is just stupid. One has nothing to do with the other. As far as we can tell, the changes at Fitzgeralds are just not all that impressive. And calling a place THE D with a link to Detroit is equally stupid. No offense to those of you who call Detroit home but there isn't a single thing about Detroit that would make me want to go somewhere in Vegas associated with it. Much like I doubt anything to do with Hillbillies would make anyone else want to go to a Jed Clampett themed resort in Vegas.

I feel like the Vegas Gang truly is the "smartest podcast on the internet", and has continued to do a solid job of shredding the casino industry since the passing of Jeff Simpson. While nobody will ever fill the void left by his passing, from a listener's perspective, I think the addition of another voice might be a good thing in the long term. While I do think it is honorable of Dr. Chuck S. Monster to offer up his throne of gold at the Vegas Gang not-so-round-table to Jesus himself, I'm not sure that Jesus has any place in a podcast about sin city...unless you really are looking for the "how to live without sin" perspective. As interesting as that could be, I don't think that's really what the listeners want. As a faithful long-time listener, my nomination for a potential addition the the Vegas Gang podcast is Jeff in OKC. His comments on the various Vegas Internet Mafia related sites are always insightful, thought provoking, and catalyst for discussion. I do think he offers a very different perspective from the 3 current Gangsters and based on his fine performance at the Vegas Match Game last fall, he can hold his own amongst the various Mafioso. Just the opinion of this lowly listener. Thanks for all the effort and hard work on the various Vegas Internet Mafia related things and I look forward to seeing everyone in October!

Posted by Dave

@ Jeff-- When Lyle Berman and Grand Casinos came to town to rescue the Stratosphere, they supposedly wanted to name the casino the Grand Las Vegas. According to my sources, MGM has the exclusive right to the Grand name for casino-related uses in Southern Nevada. I haven't seen the legal documents myself, so I won't say categorically that they exist, but it seems more than likely to me.

For the record, I do not now, nor have I ever, owned a pair of Birkenstocks. I don't know where that's coming from.

If you want to see a small sampling of my writing about Downtown:

http://www.weeklyseven.com/latest/2012/02/23/mob-neighbors

http://www.weeklyseven.com/latest/2011/10/27/dining-business-plaza-plays-smart

http://www.weeklyseven.com/news/2011/february/24/leap-faith

http://www.weeklyseven.com/news/2011/february/10/suite-designs

Looking at my ten most recent Green Felt Journals:

2 were specifically about Downtown Las Vegas properties (Plaza, Mob Museum tie-ins)

5 were about general industry/citywide trends (surveillance, poker rules, linen services, NFR, Chinese New Year) 2 of these specifically mentioned downtown properties/events

2 featured properties that might or might not be considered the Strip (M Resort, Palms)

1 discussed the Tropicana's Nikki to RPM transition

It would be very difficult to argue that my body of work focuses on the Strip to the exclusion of other stories. If anything, from a revenue perspective, I over-represent Downtown and off-Strip casinos in my writing, which isn't because of any inherent bias, but because people at those properties tend to be more accessible. I reached out to Derek Stevens several months ago to get his perspective and plans for his Downtown properties. He didn't respond to my email. I'd love to interview him and help him share his story. While I'm skeptical of the name, I am overall positive about this project and others Downtown, as I said here: http://www.lvbusinesspress.com/articles/2012/03/27/news/iq_52098881.txt

As to what I do with my time when I'm not working, I'll just say that it's more important to me to spend time with my family than to be a lounge lizard. I haven't gotten the memo that says you need to be some Tony Clifton wannabe to qualify as a "real Las Vegan."

Posted by Hunter

This is the best comment thread ever.

I'd love to have Derek Stevens on the Vegas Gang. We traded a few emails late in 2011 and he seemed amenable. I'm sure he disagrees with some of the stuff we said and it would be great to get his take on some of those issues.

There goes Dave again, making me look stupid for wearing my underwear on my head again. Sheesh.

@Dr. Dave Makes sense to me. Except the Downtown Grand is being fronted by Seth Schorr, who, based on his bloodline of being Wynn right hand man Marc Schorr's son, has to be smart enough to have questioned the name issue. And I wold think we would have heard some complaining from MGM shortly after the name was announced. Maybe MGM brass thinks highly of young Schorr and doesn't see any threat from any place downtown?

Maybe it's just the region I hail from, but for folks around here "The D" means something very different than what these people were hoping.

My friends and I have been having a lot of fun saying stuff like "The D will be larger, cleaner, and more welcoming to the public." "Hey ladies, I'd like to invite you to come check out The D."

Sorry for taking the discourse down several notches.

The comments prove how diverse of community there is here. It's pretty awesome.

Variety is the spice of life. Enjoy it in Vegas and enjoy it in opinions. FWIW, I spent all day and night downtown on Sunday and it was awesome. Not an elegant Wynn kind of awesome. A pancake dinner @ midnight after boozing all day kind of awesome.

@Jeff and Dave -- Didn't MGM give a slot of slack to Wynn and Circus Circus for wanting to use the name Grand Victoria for what eventually became the Monte Carlo? There could be precedent there with the Downtown Grand.

Just listened to Vegas Gang #76, four weeks late. Great episode. Really liked the AC info even though it was very sobering. Down 36%? Wow!

Since almost a month has passed, have Hunter, Chuck and Dave changed their initial views of The D?