Two Way Hard Three | Las Vegas Casino & Design Blog

Mike,

Excellent find and thank you so much for posting.

It helps me remember a time when we talked about these sorts of things around here. :-)

Cheers,
Hunter

Hunter, the interesting thing has been the talking carried out elsewhere ;-).

Honestly, the man is good at what he does. Some people might not like it, but he is, nevertheless, good at what he does. He creates imaginiative spaces the evoke "whimsy", as I've said before, in his properties.

Mike, you mentioned Palazzo and I'm still eagerly anticipating what LVS is going to do with this property. Is it going to be an unimaginiative copy of Bellagio? Or, is it going to be something different, something that is similar to Bellagio yet altogether different? I guess we'll have to wait until Octob...eh, let's say...March. If we're lucky January.

Who was it on this very blog that made, more or less verbatim, this statement: "Wynn Las Vegas showed us that we can be fanciful without a theme"? That statement really struck a chord and resonated with me.

That's what I like. That's what calls me back. I know we've discussed this privately before. How many times have I made a reservation only to switch back to Wynn at the last minute? How often I returned to The Mirage before MGM Mirage "Beatled" the hell out of it (and this at a time when THEhotel was the reigning accommodation king). Each time I see in pictures that Tower Suites lobby, the elevator corridor, the villa atrium, or Tableau, I can't help but crack a half-smile. If it weren't for scoring the deal of the century on a two-bedroom Skyloft, I know I'd have a Salon suite or Fairway awaiting me for my next trip.

I love what I'm seeing at CityCenter, but will it give me that yearning feeling that I need to return again and again? Probably not.

Posted by mike_ch

I'm startled that they suggest WLV is feminine. To me it looks like the macho sibling to Bellagio. One is selling fast cars just off the casino floor, the other is selling jewelry.

Your picture here more or less sums up my least favorite elements of Steve Wynn interiors that started showing up in Treasure Island and struck with a vengeance at Bellagio and WLV: I look at that room and think it's made out of birthday cake. In that case, the chocolate brown is really not that much of a problem to me. It's the yellowish orange tone throughout framed with layer after umpteen layers of white trim looking like so much frosting.

The things I do like about the room, though, are the contrast of the columns with the glass, the carpet pattern, and the fact that the columns are subtle enough to almost seem like they weren't simply added for eyecatching design. There's certainly no "T'ank yew mahhble cawwlums!" going on here

Posted by mike_ch

er, to finish that post, "going on here like I'd expect to see in similar accomodations at places like Caesars."

This Safari for Windows beta really likes to cut the end off my posts. If you see any messages like that, apologies in advance.

Mike, when I walk through The Venetian, I'm reminded of those "mahhble cawwlums".

Actually, I hate those columns in the villa. Maybe they're load-bearing for the duplexes and they had to decorate them somehow, but otherwise, they really don't need to be there. And while I agree that the d�cor is overdone and I wouldn't want it in my own home, it is something I'd like to return to on vacation.

Posted by mike_ch

Actually, mahhble cawwlums originally made me laugh because it makes me think so much of Caesars Palace, it's quest to stay a top-tier resort despite it's age, and particularly the Forum Casino section where it just goes over the top.

"Dis place was just anudda casino on da stweet. Right now it's kinda old, but *ding!* Now it's classy! Like an estate or somethin'! Wow. You can charge a few hundwed dolla's a night to stay in this place. You gotta get youself some mahhble cawwwlums!"

Is Thomas still with WD&D?

Mike, it's interesting that you mention the Venetian, because as much as I utterly dislike the resort and it's overall, "cheap" design, I have to say they're trying to make a sort of mea culpa in terms of renovating certain public spaces. While I was on my way to Delmonico one evening I noticed that they've started to install actual marble sided carpet segments in the restaurant row area. It is very reminiscent of Bellagio just not as attractive or expensive, but it is an improvement over the awful green, gold, and red carpet that you can see throughout the resort.

On Wynn, I do have to agree that the villas may be overdone, but that is entirely why I come to this city and stay at a Steve Wynn resort. I do disagree with Mike_ch in terms of the masculine resort, I feel it has an incredibly feminine aspect to it. The reds, the golds, the browns, for me, lend themselve to a feminine design. Even more so would be the whites and golds found in the Tower Suites lobby and the main registration desk. Again, another example, Parasol Up and Parasol Down exude a whimsy that is just feminine. Whether it's the actual parasols or the seating in each of the bars, the bars just seem feminine. All of these aspects, though, add to that whimsy and that idea that Mike mentioned above, the resort is as fanciful as one can have without having a theme.

Sorry, that is one of the most spectacularly awful interior spaces I've ever seen. I might hire that guy to design my guest bedroom, but any designer who proposed something like that for the part of my house I spend time in would get tossed out on his ear.

Fortunately for us non whale the suites are considerably more restrained. They must have had an actual budget to adhere to.

Posted by mike_ch

I'll never be able to see something like a casino bar as feminine, but I suppose it may be part of the prudish way I was raised.

The stuff you guys list as whimsy is the stuff that makes me want to throw up my hands and mutter "what the hell" and think of Leonard's comment about brothels. The red/gold/brown gave everything a real Asia feel, which I thought was appropriate considering Macau, Asian high-rollers, Wynn's interest in Buddhism, etc. The greens and purples and yellows that wind up mixed into that seem uninvited, though.

As I think I've said once before, the carpet looks like a very nice traditional red casino carpet that someone accidentally spilled a lava lamp on, sending green and purple blobs all over. :D

Wow! Now i remember why i like Wynn so much. I am thoroughly impressed with the resort, almost jaw dropping. If he creates a better mouse trap then i'm stuck...we will see what Palazzo and CC come up with to top it.

My ONLY comment regarding Thomas' garish "trash", referred to as exemplary interior design, for ONCE will be short + sweet: I'm cancelling my subscription to 'Architectural Digest' effective immediately!

Posted by mike_ch

For once I won't complain with your decision. They listed Michael Graves there, after all. Things that make me say "urgh."

Leonard, you do know they did a similar piece on Mirage's Villas way back in '92, right?

Hmm i would like to read that piece on the Mirage Villas, anyone able to dig up a copy??

Mike E: I ACTUALLY have that VERY A.D. article which you refer to featuring Stevie front + center, "striking a pose" in the, then newly constructed, Mirage Villas (circa 1992) stored somewhere on one of my dozen or so older PCs now in storage. I will attempt to try + find it, however, due to the fact that it has now been 15 years, it might take me quite some time to locate. marlymarr, you will not be able to find [this] feature article that Mike E is referring to in the Architectural Digest's archives because it has been too long since it was published. Regarding, Michael Graves, while I personally have never been a "fan" of his work, he was a former client of mine + I am honored to have had the privilege of working with him. Graves' work not only includes architectural projects, but extends to interior design + industrial/consumer products as well. He is undoubtedtly a "world class" architect. With respect to Roger Thomas, he is NOT considered within the industry to be classified as an 'interior designer' by trade. He is nothing but just another flaming gay (by his OWN admission) "DECORATOR" made relevant only by Steve Wynn's lifetime obligation to Thomas' father. There exists an incredible pool of truly talented "interior designers" out there, however that it's a shame that Steve has no choice but to insist on having a common "decorator" in charge of the WD+D interior design department. I would be willing to bet that Thomas has more 'sample swatches' in his office than the entire WLV casino has in tokens! LOL

What's with the extremely thinly veiled locker room joke? Not very funny.

Say what you will, but don't ever accuse Steve Wynn of being homophobic.

And gay men usually have such great style....I've never seen anything as tragic as that piece of schlock that masquerades as the home of Roger Thomas. Hard to believe he spends any time there. There are mental institutions that have more charm.

"Institutional" exactly describes it.

As for the so-called great style of the Wynn Casino....I might agree if there were no "chocolate brown" and absolutely no red. Ban those two colors, and it just might work. I fear "Encore" won't outlaw the dark browns and ugly, agitating reds...and it'll just be a carbon copy of Wynn.

"Fanciful" is one thing, but you need a focal point. Theme gives you a reference point and something to focus. Without any particular theme, all you've really got are a bunch of details, elegant though they may be.....that don't really add up to any one thing.

And, Bellagio is to a "Theme-d" resort. The theme is elegant Italian countryside. Warmth and charming. The focal point of everything is the fountains and ceiling flowers.

At Wynn, all you've got are someone's crass initials, amidst the fanciful, but empty, details.

And indeed, for all the elegant details...I find the Wynn Villas rather cold and stark. Naturally, if offered, I'd stay. I'm just saying Wynn Design ---"fanciful" maybe. Festive--maybe. Glamorous-perhaps. But it's a kind of fanciful and festive glamour that's completely devoid of any warmth or charm.

He got it right with Bellagio. Perhaps he should have stopped there.

Ouch. Sorry, but truth is my hobby!

Peace, Maxine

Posted by mike_ch

Leonard: I don't have any problems with the spatulas and such with Graves' name on it that I see at Target, although I wonder what drives a guy like that to put his name on something so common. But what I don't care for is his buildings.

Not to get too off topic, but you know what my interests are and I can say Graves' buildings for Disney (two hotels and a corporate HQ) are ugly. The HQ building I don't like for political reasons (executive greed) just as much as I do appearance, but the hotels he did for them in Orlando are so bad that landscaping and engineering was asked if it would be possible to "hide" the hotels from being easily seen by visitors.

Leonard, I think I'd trust the opinions of Architectural Digest long before I give any weight to your spiteful and insensitive remarks. You may claim that the architectural community considers Wynn's and Thomas' work utter trash, but here in print and online, one of the most respected publications on the subject proves you wrong.

Mike E: There is no question whatsoever that the most "respected" of us in the design community, without a doubt, considers Thomas' work to be a hodgepodge of incongruous gaudy "decoration" as opposed to [him] having at least made an attempt to provide innovative, ground-breaking interior design as seen with so many new designers today. Thomas' collective work lacks both order + discipline. Roger Thomas' skill as an interior designer would be better served "decorating" the homes of wealthy retired elderly couples in Palm Springs as opposed to the 'interior design' for major gamig resorts. Mike E, maybe you need to pay more attention to those men women in the business who are truly at the top of their game that share my opinion of this talentless hack Thomas. Steve owes Thomas' father a debt of gratitude for the rest of his life + that is the ONLY reason Roger Thomas holds this position, plus the fact that Wynn is a control freak extraordinaire + truly talented interior designers simply wouldn't put up with his so-called design "expertise" on command! Ask yourself why Wynn keeps changing, tweaking, rebuilding + redesigning much of his interior venues, but somwhow he can't quite seem to get it right at the end? Who suffers from this sort of reckless business model, the shareholders that's who. Steve Wynn runs his properties as if they were wholly owned by him. Wynn's personal management skills have proven to be nothing short of irresponsible. I'm sure that Roger Thomas is just what Steve ordered, a whining kiss-ass little puppy dog willing to obediently carry out his master's commands + the mediocre results are the fruit of this collaboration. The interior of Wynn's projects haven't evolved since the Bellagio days, they are just more of the same old uninspired bordello interiors + Encore will continue this tradition. The interiors of all of Wynn's joints bring to mind nothing but an overexpressed use of materials that, not only clash, but lack function + continuity. His places look like really upscale whorehouses, plain + simple! Mike E, you just keep on reading each + every issue of A.D. while I choose instead to listen to the opinions of real world experts in this very field...

Mike_ch which two hotels at disney are the ones Graves designed. Are they in CA or FL.

I agree with Mike E on Thomas. Leonard's got such a spiteful attitude towards anything Wynn that his opinion is not to be taken seriously. I would also agree with the Magazine. Top 100 Leonard, deal with it.

From the pictures, the interior design/decorating of wynn suites looks pretty out there. On the other hand, I thought the pictures of his house showed a pretty nice design. I disagree with Maxine on this one. I am not a big fan of modernist design but I think his house is done well. I especially liked the pool area.

I will be in Las Vegas in a couple of weeks and I am really looking forward to finally seeing the Wynn in person instead of reading everyone else's opinion.

Leonard: thanks for saving me the search in trying to find that article, if you do come across it i'd like to see it. Whether he is "flaming gay" or not doesn't take away from the fact that he has been recognized by a very well known publication.

Mike E: Remember this critique of WLV (one of two negative reviews) appearing in the L.A. Times penned by their architectural editor. [He] points out in the article a very accurate comparative analysis of Thomas' failed attempt to try + emulate many elements used in Philippe Starck's previous interior design projects. Now Starck is, arguably, considered to be one of the world's most recognized design talents, not like Roger Thomas who masquerades as a "Wannabe" world-renowned interior designer. Nazrian was lucky to sign a 15 year exclusive deal with Starck for his future hotel + night club ventures, including the complete revamping of the existing Sahara Hotel. Similar articles drawing the same negative observations of WLV also appeared in the N.Y. Times as well. Well I guess not ALL of the most respected print media exactly agrees with Architectural Digest's POV! However I suggest that you don't rush to cancel your subscription to A.D. just yet...LOL

http://www.calendarlive.com/architecture/hawthorne/cl-et-wynn9may09,0,4831613.story?coll=cl-hawthorne

Posted by Michael Lu

Mike E. wrote:

Mike, when I walk through The Venetian, I'm reminded of those "mahhble cawwlums".

Excellent post! When I walk through The Venetian all I can think of is Q*bert. That stupid marble floor you got to walk on from the lobby to the gaming floor. ugh.

FYI, I Was Searching For The ARCHITECTURAL DIGEST Sept 1992 Magazine,That Features The MIRAGE Article And I Found A Couple For Sale On EBAY For Those Who Are Interested.

Leonard, the rhetoric is just tiring. I mean, yes there are a few questionable interior designs at Wynn, but if it is that hated by the architectural community, then why would AD print that article about the resort? Why would Mobil be willing to give the resort the only five star award on the Strip? Why would such a poorly designed hotel win so many awards? (I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but it's just tiring hearing these rhetorical comments over and over again.)

Also, if Bellagio is such a "high-class bordello" that has little or no remarkable design, why is it one of, if not the, most profitable resort on the Las Vegas Strip? Why is the Mirage so profitable? And don't use the MGM argument, they're still very much Steve Wynn resorts, in their hearts and souls.

John: I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that WLV is currently under serious consideration of actually being downgraded + potentially losing their five-star rating due to the recent state of affairs over there. Let's just wait + see what awaits Wynn Resorts' ultimate status, THEN we can start a flame war over who was right or wrong.

Posted by mike_ch

Very off-topic post for Tom M:

Tom, the hotels designed by Graves were Swan and Dolphin in Orlando, as well as Hotel New York at EuroDisney. Swan and Dolphin came about because EPCOT Center was the most expensive private construction at it's time, and they made a deal with Tishman Construction to build hotels anywhere they wanted on Disney World property in exchange for burdening some of the cost. Tishman chose the very dead center of the property. Their plan for hotel buildings were large, square, gray, drab nightmares. Michael Eisner renegotiated it so they could get their spot but Eisner, who had become an armchair enthusiast of architecture, would pick the designer. He chose Graves.

Today, the Swan and Dolphin are so large that you can see the seafoam-colored tops of their buildings from the World Showcase area of EPCOT. The tops of the triangular-shaped Dolphin tower and fish statues and so on destroy the skyline of World Showcase, usually appearing somewhere between France and Japan. So you look across the lagoon and see the UK, a big triangle, the Eiffel Tower, Morocco, a concrete fish statue, a Japanese temple, etc. Allegedly even Eisner thought there should be some sort of obstruction blocking the tops of those buildings, but they never found one.

On the other hand, Hotel New York was probably the best they had gotten out of Graves (sample photo), since his colors and boxy design are well suited to that look of an art-deco Soho painting they were going after.

hey folks... I'm going to ask the library at Newsweek to dig the 1992 piece up and will post it somewhere, although it won't have pictures, unfortunately.

Also, my forthcoming guidebook, "Gay Vegas" includes a Q-and-A with Roger. A very odd fellow.

Leonard, okay, but there's still the issue of Bellagio and Mirage. How do you explain those two properties that, while under different ownership and undergoing "minor" changes to their overall design and layout, are stil very much Steve Wynn properties and that have not only done quite well, but are some of, and in Bellagio's case, the most popular and profitable casinos on the Strip?

Links, Links??? I don't want gossip.

Pikes: Why don't you ask Hunter, as moderator of this forum, why he has decided to 'selectively' refuse, for whatever reason, to not publish certain posts that clearly substantiate my position which supports my comments! John, Mirage + Bellagio are considered to be OLD + OUTDATED properties by today's standards. Yet the ONLY reason that Bellagio is making big bucks + performing well beyond expectations for almost 7 years now is because MGM/Mirage made it a profitable asset after they acquired Mirage Resorts. You need not forget the fact that Steve was hemmoraging money left + right under his tenure + Bellagio was actually in the RED (I have the dismal figures should you care to see them). Mirage Resorts stock was trading at an all time low of $10 per share when Kerkorian came in + offered $21/share + saved the day for us shareholders! John, take a long hard look at the progressive evolution of Steve's exterior/interior design "statement" in connection with both WLV + Encore, the fact that you consider these two projects as an equal comparative against the current onslaught of seriously formidable competitor's properties is absolutely beyond comprehension. When CityCenter is complete, I will GUARANTEE you that your opinion of Wynn's overrated, crappy properties will be relegated to nothing but a high-end Motel 6. I'm sorry if you inssit that my "rhetoric" is becoming old + tired, just wait + see whether or not my predictions are based solely on my personal disdain for everything Wynn or otherwise prove to be the right call at the end of the day, which is all that really matters isn't it?

Leonard, be patient. The reason comments under this story are being published rapidly is because this is my story and I'm near a computer. Hunter does not have access to my account to publish them for me.

I see you've left other comments with other articles that Hunter posted, but they won't be published until he's near a computer. I do not have access to his account to do so.

I know you find a certain heroism being the censored voice of the Steve Wynn-opressed, but that's not the case right now.

Posted by mike_ch

Why do we hear endlessly about CityCenter VS Wynn's and never VS anybody else's? Is this hotel going to make every other place on the strip look like a cheap Texas brothel or just the Wynn ones?

And even if it is as good as they say, isn't it one high-priced joint? I can't see how revolutionary and groundbreaking it'll be when only a few visitors are going to get the experience. Nobody flocks to the cheap rooms at MGM Grand because of the Mansion, but whatever.

Because somebody hypes this thing like it's the biggest idea since the first headliner showroom.

Okay, here's the problem, Leonard. You're putting words in my mouth. I haven't said that Encore's and Wynn's interiors will match the level of CityCenter. I have simply stated that I enjoy Wynn's properties more than those of MGM Mirage. Also, I still don't see why you think CityCenter's interiors will be incredible. They haven't built a resort since MGM Grand. What proof is there that these interiors will be revolutionary? What proof is there, I see none. In fact, the greatest proof I see is trusting some dillusional hack with the interiors for The Harmon. Honestly, you think Adam Tihany is anymore qualified that Roger Thomas? For the love of God, look at the travesty that is Kokomo's. Oh yeah, I just love annoying lights blinking in my eyes for an entire meal, while I'm eating in a space that is made up of a green that reminds of the exact opposite of an enjoyable meal. Revolutionary, huh, last time I checked Cravings wasn't anymore revolutionary than the actual revolutionary design of The Buffet at Wynn. Let's see, which one allows light to flood into it's elegantly designed dining space and which one is just some jumbled compilation of orange and blue? Hmmm...

I know this topic has been brought up so often, except I really need to say something. Posting on this blog has become such a chore, because almost anything will be rebounded by a somewhat repetitive response by a certain poster. We're on a topic about Roger Thomas being named to the AD 100, a very prestigious recognition, and certain posts have drifted into OFF-TOPICland. The broken record posts of the fact that Steve drove his company down to $10 per share due to his poor management skills, that he is so irresponsible that he shouldn't run such a large company, and that his hotel is in danger of losing status as Vegas's premiere resort, are getting old and are only damaging the poster's credibility as a valid source. When the all mighty City Center comes to town, and Wynn becomes a motel 6, what will happen to everything else in vegas? If wynn's a motel 6, then palazzo's the equivalent to a hostel. Sorry, but this is just getting boring. Hunter, not meaning to insult you personally, but where is the elimination of the off topic posting? It seems that as you scroll down each topic, everything shifts from being fine, to being an anti-pro wynn war.

Everyone deserves their own opinion, yet at some point things get old. While I value Leonard's view on his father's previous projects, his wynn bashing gets a little old after a while. But don't worry, I'll still visit your wynn website daily.

PS:Leonard, with the insane amount hostility that you and Sheldon share towards Stevie, why don't you guys form a holding company (ANTI WYNN Holding?), and takeover WYNN Resorts??? Now's your chance, WYNN's trading at 94.67, a true steal!! BUY! BUY! BUY! :)

Posted by mike_ch

John: "the actual revolutionary design of The Buffet at Wynn"

I often go to buffets for lunch (it's more or less the same price as the cafes, with more variety) and I don't see anything revolutionary about the Wynn buffet as far as building design is concerned. Aside from one deceptively pretty room and a crowded dessert area that can often be difficult to reach, I don't see what's so revolutionary. There's a bathroom in the dining area, and that's nice, but he already did that at Bellagio. I've seen more impressive additions to the buffet formula at Red Rock than WLV.

However, I'll agree with you that Cravings is ugly. I think it's got some interesting niche offerings that go overlooked as far as food service goes but as far as atmosphere I think it's lousy and too identical, making it easy to get lost in. Whoever designed the buffet formerly known as Dishes at Treasure Island, though, should make another buffet that's hopefully nicer or less expensive. The room design there keeps out the cafeteria feel of the place and is more exciting than the food, to be honest.

Posted by detroit1051

John, you're right on about Kokomo's. A very pleasant room was transformed into a jarring, unsettling space. Worse, if you're up front, backing up to the new lobby bar, the smoke and noise are offensive. The colors are awful.
Mike_ch, Wynn's Buffet is one of my disappointments at the property. I like the natural light, but it is crammed into too small a space with inconvenient food lines. I was expecting something even better than the originally outstanding Bellagio Buffet, but Wynn didn't deliver. Bellagio's Buffet already shows the "dumbing-down" approach under MGM's management.

Posted by detroit1051

John wrote, "They haven't built a resort since MGM Grand. What proof is there that these interiors will be revolutionary?"
I'm really interested in the CityCenter casino hotel. MGM is an outstanding, profitable operator, but they don't exactly have a track record of building first class properties. MGM Grand was a construction disaster which needed to be almost entirely reworked. They're much better at snapping up others' properties. Having said that, I am impressed with the photos I've seen of MGM Macau and the model rooms displayed on MGM Detroit's website.

Steve Friess: I'm definitely interested in your guide book, is there an approximate time for it's release?

Devon: That's a pretty sharp concept you came up with, however, I would prefer to just sit back + wait until WYNN's share price retreats downward to around 40 or so before launching the newfangled ANTI-WYNN HOLDING CORP. + even giving serious consideration to buying ANY shares in the company. When WYNN's share price reaches a depressed position, then I'll BUY, BUY, BUY! I don't know if Sheldon would exactly consider partnering with me since you can count on the fact that he has his OWN 'well prepared agenda' on exactly how [he] intends to deal with his arch-nemesis Stevie boy in the long term + I'm sure it will get quite ugly for Wynn, especially when one considers Adelson's competitive strategy in Macau. I sure as hell wouldn't want a man as powerful, wealthy + vindictive as Adelson considered a foe under any circumstances!! Steve made his own bed + now he will be forced to sleep in it. Venetian Macau hasn't even opened for business yet + based on the fact Wynn Resorts is significantly scaling back development in Macau, it looks like Steveie is aleady wetting his panties. :-)

Posted by mike_ch

I guess I have to go ahead and ask why you don't short WYNN? You make it sound like it's a total no-brainer for risk.