Two Way Hard Three | Las Vegas Casino & Design Blog

will the station casinos have land still to build viva station casinos or will they lose the land

I think we can finally see the end-game to this bankruptcy. This deal will probably be accepted by the court (and is not altogether different from what Boyd originally proposed). The real issue is what price the 13 properties will fetch and how many buyers will there be. Boyd will certainly go after a number of them, but with lowball offers (including GVR). Some of the lesser properties (Fiestas) may go for as low as $5M apiece (especially with the current Starwood bid on Riviera). I wouldn't be suprised to see Pinnacle finally pick something up.

Stations is keeping Wild Wild West, which includes the Viva land.

Wow, so I'll no longer have a Station Casino in my 'hood? I'm also wondering if Greenspun will bid for the other 50% of GVR and Aliante. It makes sense, as they own all of the Green Valley and Aliante communities. Or would they be willing to work out a deal with Boyd?

Imagine the player's club holocaust.

The LVRJ and Sun articles differ signficantly, so its unclear precisely what the proposed sale entails. The LVRJ says all the spun out properties are to be sold together and that the Fertittas intend to bid on them. We also need to find out what debt will remain on the properties being sold.

I'm doubt the Greenspun's have the cash to buy the other 50% of GVR and Aliante.

parched-

"I'm doubt the Greenspun's have the cash to buy the other 50% of GVR and Aliante."

I also have my doubts, but I don't doubt the Greenspuns' devotion to Las Vegas. They're viewed here as one of "The Founding Families of Las Vegas", and they take that role seriously. They're especially known for developing Green Valley, so I think they'll at least try to make sure that GVR doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

The Greenspuns have their family Hanukkah and Passover celebrations at GVR. It's personal for them. I can see them at least buying the other 50% of GVR if Station can't find a suitable buyer for it.

Posted by mike_ch

Greenspun's money is tied up in real estate and media, and the status of those basically are a reflection of how much they have.

In other words, they're in no position to buy.

Mike C-

"Greenspun's money is tied up in real estate and media"

And two of their real estate holdings are the Green Valley and Aliante master-planned communities. I'm sure they don't want to see their investments go south (any more). They obviously have a major stake in ensuring the GVR and Aliante casinos are still operating and keeping up appearances. And while they're probably not in the best position to buy the other 50% stakes and it may not be their first option, I'm also thinking they won't take this option off the table if the right suitor doesn't show up.

It probably depends on what Boyd offers and what Boyd proposes in how it plans to manage the GVR and Aliante casinos.

I can see the Greenspuns working with Boyd on GVR and Aliante. It sounds like the Fertittas fully expect to win the auction for the 13 miscellaneous properties (i.e they retain control). Very interesting is that Colony Capital will only have a 4% interest; in effect wiping out most of their original investment.

Posted by Hunter

Colony does seem like the big, big loser here.

Not sure how much we can read into Colony getting out of Stations, but they have significant additional capital that was recently raised for investment in distressed Vegas properties (so obviously they are not leaving town). Given their current position in other Vegas casinos, it should be interesting to see how justify the use of new capital to wipe out their own previous investors.

With currently no love lost between the Fertittas and the Evil Empire (Greenspuns), I don't see the Fertittas in a hurry to keep their interest in GVR. Red Rock is the crown jewel and where the corporate offices were moved upon completion of the resort.

No one in their right mind would want Aliante Station (unless they could get it at an obnoxious discount). That whole part of the Valley (from Aliante on west) is foreclosureville. All the people who were left holding the bag when the ponzi scheme known as "Las Vegas growth" ended. Crackerbox houses sold way over true value.

Case and point:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4105-Gliding-Gulls-Ave-North-Las-Vegas-NV-89084/66841746_zpid/
Bought for $297k, sitting on the market unsold at $119k. It will be years (and maybe years and years) before the far north and northwest parts of the valley stabilize economically. Especially as the core of the area of Las Vegas gets redeveloped and people start moving back in towards the city (as has happened in other west coast cities like Portland over the past 20 years). Much of that area will be at risk for turning into a suburban ghetto in the next decade (and some argue that it has already started). Aliante Station is simply never going to be anything near the money machine originally visioned.

Sidebar: I'm no fan of the Greenspuns, but admire how shrewd they were. They conned many thousands of people into paying Los Angeles prices for NORTH Las Vegas homes. I was rolling my eyes at the time.

Lots of questions remain: How much do the Fertittas really want to stay in the casino game when they are making zillions on UFC? I could see them very comfortable with the "near and dear to their heart" four properties that it looks like they will end up with. What is Boyd's move going to be (if any)? That unspent Echelon cash/credit is burning a hole in their pocket. Are there Carl Ichan types out there who we don't even know about ready to swoop in and grab a couple of places (a la Arizona Charlies situation a few years ago).

This is going to be a fun one to watch.

parched-

"I can see the Greenspuns working with Boyd on GVR and Aliante."

Now that I'm thinking about it more, you'll probably be right. Boyd now has experience running higher-end properties with Borgata in AC, so perhaps they can work out something with the Greenspuns to keep GVR in tip-top shape.

Ted N-

"I'm no fan of the Greenspuns,"

Well, I am... But I will agree with you that, to a certain extent, that whole North/Northwest stretch of the valley is a hot mess. To their credit, the Greenspuns did a great job turning Henderson around in building Green Valley... And later in developing Seven Hills. Perhaps they could have done the same with Aliante if the real estate market hadn't overheated so dramatically, but OTOH all their construction contributed to exactly that overheating.

"Aliante Station is simply never going to be anything near the money machine originally visioned."

I'd never say never... But I do see that Aliante Station will be a little more difficult. At least GVR is in an established, desirable, upscale neighborhood that will always be loved by Las Vegans (Green Valley). Aliante, OTOH, isn't as established and has become a disaster zone. After all, the 215 Beltway isn't even a freeway yet up there!

"Especially as the core of the area of Las Vegas gets redeveloped and people start moving back in towards the city (as has happened in other west coast cities like Portland over the past 20 years). "

Yes and no. To an extent, we'll probably always have a segment of folks moving into the valley looking for "the good life" and seeking out homes in areas like Green Valley and Summerlin that are considered "good for raising kids". However, I do think you're right about "yuppie" folk coming here looking for a more urban experience. And for the most part, the future of Las Vegas growth will likely be higher-density urban development. I just wonder if Station will hold onto plans for future mixed use development around Palace Station.

Posted by mike_ch

Honestly, I think the view from the MMA world is that the Fertittas are losing enough money on Station that if they want to save it they may need to take on a partner in Zuffa/UFC.

A lot of MMA/wrestling fans (these two worlds mix a lot more than you'd think) thought the reason why Shane McMahon left his father's World Wrestling business last fall was to buy his way into MMA, but he since has been pretty invisible save a few appearances around media summits.

Greenspun brought that HOA, gated community stuff that was previously limited to a few exclusive golf communities into the mainstream and turned the valley into a sprawling nightmare. At the same time, though, Henderson was not exactly a nice place to visit before they did that (and there's still funny coloured pools of chemicals hanging around from the days before the PEPCON plant blew) so I'm sure the City Council is appreciative.

Trying to make that magic work twice in Aliante is laughable though. It's much more distant from the action than GV is ("real" Henderson is actually further away) and a region that is fairly or unfairly doomed to be stigmatized as rough territory lies in-between. I was always amused when I saw cars with Aliante license plate frames. You want to yell to everybody that you live up there? Why?

Like Ted, I see the flight trend of the past few decades reversing soon, though I'm not sure it will actually happen here. Vegas is sort of a business park masquerading as a town and the businesses will want most of the core to themselves.

What I do see is near-area suburbs being redeveloped and becoming the new hot property while this far-off nonsense like Summerlin and Aliante become the new slums. And Lake LV? Fuhgeddaboutit.

"I just wonder if Station will hold onto plans for future mixed use development around Palace Station."

Like the Red Rock Residences and VIVA, this dream was just there for show. Station loves trial balloons.

I think I read in the Sun that the land around Palace Station is in the auction group. I'm guessing it's not as important to them as the Viva land. Or, it's so valuable that they have to look like they are getting max value for it by selling.

Jeff, this RJ article is less than three years old and is positively glowing about the development opportunities west of I-15. Amazing how everyone got caught up in the euphoria of never-ending expansion.

Mike, I drove out to Sun City Aliante before construction ever started. Must have been 2001 or so. We wondered who would live out so far.

Here's the RJ story:
http://tinyurl.com/y9a2tjy

Mike C-

Well, I think you're wrong about Summerlin. It's become more or less the equivalent of Beverly Hills to LA, Marin to SF, and La Jolla to SD. It was beautifully master planned, it sits right next to Red Rock Canyon, and I think it will always be THE place where most everyone dreams of living.

However, I do think you and Ted N are right about the far North/NW areas. They weren't master planned like Summerlin and Green Valley. They're further from the urban core of The Strip and Downtown. That whole area wasn't thought out well, so Aliante Station at the very least won't be the moneymaker originally hoped for some time.

However, Station is probably wise in holding onto Red Rock. If they can keep retuning and refining it, it should work out as the economy recovers.

Jeff-

You're right. Sorry about that. I guess Station is giving up on yet another trial balloon. I just wonder what will happen to all that land.

Posted by mike_ch

atd: I've spent a lot of years on the edge of Marin, and about five years on the edge of Summerlin, and I'd say both have horrible flaws and I guess if you find yourself nodding your head in agreement at the web site, "Stuff That White People Like," you might think they're great places to live. ;)

These places were all built on the back of our post-war car culture and I think a combination of natural resources (oil is a finite substance) and ecological concerns (getting more oil will always require more ecological interference until there isn't any, plus increased transit funding to lower carbon footprints) will eventually reverse the so-called "white flight" suburb phenomenon and send wealth back to the cities. Access to transit and a proximity to shopping and entertainment will become luxuries people will pay for, and those without money will find themselves further away from this stuff.

Though many cities have suburbs and/or master planned developments (New York has Westchester, Toronto has Don Mills and The 905, Chicago has burbs in northwest Indiana and places like Aurora) nobody has spread them out to such absurdity as southwest, post-war cities like Vegas and Phoenix. Distances here are so beyond reason that I just can't see these distant communities surviving as they are. They are simply too far away from infrastructure.

This is one reason why I am so hot to trot for Maglev and high speed rail lines throughout the country. Since Amtrak left around 1997, there has been no way in or out of Vegas that isn't basically reliant on oil.

Good comments by all. Couple of follow-ups from my perspective:

Greenspuns didn't develop Green Valley out of the goodness of their heart. From everything I've read and heard in my 17 years here, it was a combination of quietly buying up the huge chunks of land needed combined with their political pull. The Las Vegas Sun was still a force to be reckoned with at the time. Even today, politicians are wary of crossing the Greenspuns. Reference the .vegas domain issue with Clark County commissioners basically rubber-stamping it. (The rest of that issue is discussion for another time). Green Valley was done purely for the mind-bending profit they made off of it. (As a capitalist, I have no problem with that).

Summerlin is "the" place to live in you have kids, no question about it. Howard Hughes corp knew what they were doing. However... the exodus you are seeing from Las Vegas right now is largely families fed up with raising their kids here, fed up with lousy 12 month schools. I predict that the influx we'll see over the next few years will be split between retirees (dirt cheap houses, lots of sun, no worries about schools) and childless 20-somethings. Basically a re-run of the 90's. As someone who moved here in the 90's as a 20-something, it was a damn cool era here.

Fretittas still want to keep Wild West. They have not given up on having their version of The Palms. One of the things we are seeing is their insistence on keeping their original core visions alive.

Station land around Palace will indeed go up for auction. Question is who the hell would want it. Much of it is also tied up in old lower-middle class apartments. Much of it is tied up in 40 year old homes, many of them which are not contiguous to the rest of the land they own. And... home prices in that neighborhood (one I'm very familiar with... we quietly rent a home in that area as our "close to Strip" headquarters) keep falling even without the Station-owned houses being dumped on the market.

Bottom Line: I don't expect the 52 acres near Palace to fetch much. Whoever scoops it us will be doing so with the understanding they will have to sit on it for years. A Palms-style resort on that land won't fly until years after Echelon and F-blu have been built out and absorbed. And frankly, I very could see Las Vegas tourism eventually capping out at the 45 million a year mark an then really not inchin up much past that in my lifetime. Hence, Palace land may never be built out into a bigger resort.

Mike C-

"These places were all built on the back of our post-war car culture and I think a combination of natural resources (oil is a finite substance) and ecological concerns (getting more oil will always require more ecological interference until there isn't any, plus increased transit funding to lower carbon footprints) will eventually reverse the so-called "white flight" suburb phenomenon and send wealth back to the cities."

Well, you won't get too much argument from me on that. I've studied "peak oil", and I think this, along with the climate crisis, will force us to rethink how we live and how we get around. Without a doubt, it will be imperative for RTC to get moving on more mass transit for Clark County.

"Access to transit and a proximity to shopping and entertainment will become luxuries people will pay for, and those without money will find themselves further away from this stuff."

Yes and no. IMHO the key to future urban success will be in cities that allow for a healthy mix of income levels, skill sets, and cultures. Still, transit and closeness to work & play will probably become much more important in the near future.

"nobody has spread them out to such absurdity as southwest, post-war cities like Vegas and Phoenix"

Yes and no. On one hand, areas like Green Valley aren't all that far from The Strip and Downtown. I only have about a 7 mile commute to and from UNLV, and my condo is only about 8 miles from Mandalay Bay. All that's needed to make my neighborhood feel more connected to the rest of the valley is more & better transit, such as an ACE line like the one that just opened connecting The Northwest with Downtown & The Strip.

"This is one reason why I am so hot to trot for Maglev and high speed rail lines throughout the country."

Absolutely, we need high-speed rail. I was originally hoping for Maglev, but they screwed up on that... Hopefully, we'll at least see Desert Xpress linked from Victorville to California's San Diego-to-San Francisco/Sacramento high-speed rail line.

Ted N-

"Greenspuns didn't develop Green Valley out of the goodness of their heart"

Well, of course they were out to make money... And OMG, did they! However, one can't deny that Green Valley is quite the well-done master-planned community. One reason why I moved here is because it feels like something one can't find in most other parts of Vegas... A real community. The same can be said of Hughes and Summerlin IMHO.

"I predict that the influx we'll see over the next few years will be split between retirees (dirt cheap houses, lots of sun, no worries about schools) and childless 20-somethings."

Yes, the retirees will keep coming to scoop up all these housing bargains. However, remember that those childless 20-somethings eventually hook up, get settled, and have kids... And when they do, they'll want good schools, nice parks, and pretty houses on the perfect cul-de-sacs. And this is why Summerlin, Green Valley, and Anthem will continue to have staying power in Vegas.

"Fretittas still want to keep Wild West. They have not given up on having their version of The Palms. One of the things we are seeing is their insistence on keeping their original core visions alive."

Well, that's the new generation of Fertittas for you. They're stubbornly holding onto their fantasies (some might call them "delusions of grandeur"), even if that means letting go of everything else (which is what they have to do now).

"Station land around Palace will indeed go up for auction. Question is who the hell would want it."

And that's a good question. This was supposed to be all about Station's future plans for a "Station-ville" mixed use complex. But now? Who else will find it of use?

Posted by mike_ch

Just for whatever it's worth, I'd dispute the greatness of Summerlin and unlike atd I've lived in the shadow of it for some time. Sprawling more than it needs to (because the development kept getting more land and so the master plan has changed over and over) and the reputation that it's basically a bunch of Orange County types lured across the border by a regressive tax scheme.

But my dislike of HOA/MPC burbs isn't entirely a political thing, I'm very left and my uncle is a tea partier and we equally dislike them for the less accountable quasi-governments and sacrifices to personal freedom. Thankfully, mine isn't too intrusive (in fact, I believe they honestly do not care about my subdivision, and instead invest all our dues into giving perks to the McMansions in the heart of the development). These style of developments are rooted in Houston because there is no zoning there, so a big master-plan development helped homeowners feel insured that there were limits to the development around them and that a toxic dump or a factory wouldn't appear across the street. They aren't that necessary here.

Green Valley may be better than Summerlin in this regard. I have been through there about three times and liked it more than what I have here. Part of it seems to be that The Powers That Be in GV's quasi-government is more open to transit and less likely to think that bus stops brings The Wrong Kind Of People and so I have better access to their facilities than I do the ones around here. But the other part of it is that the Henderson City Council really spends a lot more in quality of life stuff than their LV counterparts.

I was commenting on Twitter the other day that I'm surprised there aren't more public pool facilities around here, and mentioned the closure of Wet N Wild and why no government offered to help subsidize a replacement (back home where I'm from, a nearby town had a water park that was partially subsidized by the city government since a water park is naturally a business that only draws earnings for a brief part of the year.) Dr. Dave replied that Henderson has some Aquatic Centre with outdoor pools, indoor pools, and slides. I'm not aware of such a thing in LV.

There's also been at least three performances at the Henderson Pavillion that I'd like to see, but missed them all either due to the day of the performance or it happening so late at night (I'd rather not stand on numerous street corners trying to cross the whole valley after dark.)

I'm not sure what the priorities are for City of Las Vegas, but they seem to be focused heavily on power, Oscar's legacy projects (New City Hall and Mob Museum), and stuff in and around downtown. That and a hefty load of the liquor/massage related politics that you often see at the County building.

Maybe it's because both Downtown Old Henderson (Water Street) and Downtown New Henderson (Paseo Verde Parkway) have much more people actually living day-to-day in proximity than downtown LV, but I feel like residential services are simply a much bigger concern in the southwest than they are over here. I've suggested moving over to that area in the future, but my Dad wants to stick to county-owned land if we do because having "Las Vegas" in your address is sexy and "Henderson" is not.

Still, to sum it all up, I would prefer not to live in one of these master-planned monsters. Although if I had that much choice, I'd probably live somewhere else entirely. :b

Posted by mike_ch

Er, just a minor correction: I Know that Henderson is in the southeast, not the southwest. I haven't been the picture of mental awareness today. :-/

Mike C-

"I'd dispute the greatness of Summerlin and unlike atd I've lived in the shadow of it for some time"

Au contraire! When I was little, I'd visit my grandmother... Who was one of "The Summerlin Pioneers" as one of the first to move into Sun City. And since I still have friends & family there, I'm quite familiar with it, thank you very much. :-p

"But my dislike of HOA/MPC burbs isn't entirely a political thing, I'm very left and my uncle is a tea partier and we equally dislike them for the less accountable quasi-governments and sacrifices to personal freedom."

Well, I'm very left and I'll have to disagree with both of you on HOAs. Sure, they may have plenty of rules... But OTOH, they take care of "the commons", set standards to maintain the quality of the neighborhood (and thereby keep property values high!), and keep the community from turning into a big hot mess a la my dad's neighborhood in Orange County. (He lives in an older, pre-HOA part of OC, so houses there come in all sorts of paint colors, outdoor lawns, built-on additions, and even farm animals!)

And thanks to master plans, communities like Summerlin, Green Valley, and Anthem are filled with plenty of parks, schools, police & fire services, and other essentials that make communities work. Oh, and they also have functioning roads and are not far from the rest of civilization. Compare and contrast these to areas like Rhodes Ranch and Silverado Ranch that are not master planned (lack of parks, not enough schools, empty plots of land all over, far from the freeways, etc.). I think things like the recent real estate crash and the lack of foresight by uncaring developers like Jim Rhodes really proved how necessary master planning is for our 'burbs.

"Green Valley may be better than Summerlin in this regard."

Thank you. I agree, which is why I ultimately chose Green Valley.

"the Henderson City Council really spends a lot more in quality of life stuff than their LV counterparts"

Yes, they do... And thank goodness! Las Vegas may be the "sexier" address at first glance, but Henderson is ultimately the smarter, prettier, and more attractive one. I must give major props to our city council for continuing to invest in great parks, well-maintained roads (at least for NV standards), senior centers, arts & cultural facilities, and other services that really make our big city feel more like an intimate, comfortable community.

http://www.cityofhenderson.com/parks/pools/locations_hours_and_fees.php

And btw, Henderson actually operates multiple pools! The one closest to me (and I believe Dr. Dave as well) is at The Multigenerational Center at Green Valley & Paseo Verde, and it's actually TWO POOLS: one outdoor, and one indoor. :-)