Two Way Hard Three | Las Vegas Casino & Design Blog

"no more than 450 gambling tables"

"Encore Macau has 61 gambling tables"

so its big, but will it have tower/club/etc?

Steve Wynn's rhetoric is getting stronger every day about the glories of China and the wrong-way of U.S. policies.

Is Steve trying to wake up Washington to understand business and job creation, or has he already decided it's a lost cause, and therefore, he has no qualms about becoming a Chinese company?

Regardless, Steve is beginning to make me uncomfortable.

A few examples:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-20/wynn-says-obama-economy-damping-outlook-for-vegas-update1-.html

http://www.forexyard.com/en/news/Wynn-Resorts-says-may-shift-headquarters-to-Macau-2010-04-21T034114Z-INTERVIEW

Steve's opinons are very clear in this Bloomberg video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGpJ_62_jQg

It is almost as though he is spoiling for a fight with the Obama administration. Perhaps this Cotai project will get his mind off of politics and get him focused on what he does best.

In one of the interviews he did as part of the Encore Macau opening, he seemed to dismiss the concerns about Macau limiting the number of new tables as "conversation" and not a "fait accompli." From what I have read, the proposed limitation seems to be on "tables", but not on "gaming positions." Could be an important distinction if they can successfully grow the slot market in Macau.

I tend to agree with most of Wynn's comments about our government but, I guess we don't want to turn this into a political board. Political lines are split, and people rarely are ever able to see the other side very clearly.

Tables in Macau are much bigger than slots, and make up most of the gaming floors. I'd have to do some research, but are you sure Wyncore Macau only has 61 tables? I was thinking it was much higher than that? But yes, with 54 acres in Cotai, it will obviously be much larger than the 20 something acres he has in Macau.

Posted by Hunter

Wynn Macau has something north of 220 table games if I recall.

Yeah I see his confusion now. Encore Macau, added about 60 tables to their current count. 220 that figure sounds about right. So yes, Wyncore Macau now has 1000 rooms and 250ish tables. I think Cotai will be about 2000 rooms, with 450 tables. Double the land, double the project size, that sounds about right.

Posted by mike_ch

I'm just hoping for a building that's not a brown curvy building with grey stripes.

The most impressive moment of Wynn's career was the jump from Mirage/TI to Bellagio. Just the grounds and the building itself was a dramatic improvement. His design for WLV isn't bad but not so brilliant as to deserve five buildings.

Posted by mike_ch

By the way, I think all this backlash on politics has little to do with the White House and more to do with the state legislature. There's been grumbling for some time that the state just won't tax business incomes outside of casinos, and would keep looking to payroll taxes or anything else they can think of to keep that "No State Income Tax" billboard out there for all to see. By moving to Macao, Wynn can lose some of that but it'd be a huge mess to try and he'd still have gaming revenue taxes here.

I think it's just an idle threat from a feisty guy who likes getting into the spotlight.

The irony of all of Steve's politics is that Macao has a universal healthcare system which gives coverage to all, which is what he's so afraid of. They also have no ability to train their own doctors and thus rely on graduates from Hong Kong coming over. I dislike "Obamacare" for not going far enough on trying to un-commercialize primary health services, but the situation in Macao right now looks like the worst case scenario that he was spinning to Steve Freiss a few weeks ago.

Mike C-

"I think all this backlash on politics has little to do with the White House and more to do with the state legislature."

I don't know about that. In all my conversations with state pols so far, they all seem to be favoring more of a "broad-based business tax" structure that's actually less dependent upon gaming revenue. Even Steve Wynn himself has endorsed this.

"The irony of all of Steve's politics is that Macao has a universal healthcare system which gives coverage to all, which is what he's so afraid of."

Yes, it is. For all his bashing of "socialism" here in America, Steve Wynn just sounds ridiculous praising "Communist China"... But I know this is because he wants to continue currying favor with the Chinese government so they'll let him build Wynn Cotai, so he really just looks like a craven fool getting punk'd by Beijing.

Detroit-

"Steve Wynn's rhetoric is getting stronger every day about the glories of China and the wrong-way of U.S. policies."

See my above reply to Mike. For Wynn, it's all about currying enough favor with Beijing so they'll let him expand some more in Macau.

socal-

"It is almost as though he is spoiling for a fight with the Obama administration. Perhaps this Cotai project will get his mind off of politics and get him focused on what he does best."

Agreed. While I ultimately doubt he'll actually relocate corporate HQ to China, Wynn will probably spend the next few years developing in China. Right now, Macau is where the casino growth is at.

Would someone please explain what Obama changed that has affected Steve Wynn and his business operations since coming into office?

As far as I can tell... the status quo in terms of taxes and regulation is exactly the same as it was when Bush was in office. Where was Steve when "small government" Bush presided over the largest expansion of government since FDR? Authorized spying on Americans? Presided over the downfall fo the financial system? etc.

The fact that he's praising China as some sort of bastion of freedom is absolutely laughable. As previous have noted... China is precisely what "Socialist" Obama is supposedly leading us to according to whoever Steve Wynn apparently gets his news from.

I hate to bring politcs into this, but it really makes me not want to like Wynn and his resorts. I have no issue with his politics, nor would I normally care. I'd respect his opinions... if he wasn't being a blatant hypocrite by doing business with the global poster child for government intervention. Go ask Google how well China stands for business and economic freedom.

I'm not sure what Wynn is trying to prove with his political commentary. I just find it hypocritical. Wynn's stock price has soared since Obama took office. Sure, that can be a coincidence, but in the mean time Steve is making more money than he has in years on the stock market. I find it interesting he never mentions that or the fact that Macau has "socialist" policies.

I have no problem with Steve stating his opinion and I agree with some of what he says but considering a move to China is silly. I have a serious problem with that. If Wynn becomes a Chinese company, I will not be staying there. It may just be on paper, but it's the principle of it. Just the threat leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He doesn't sound very pro-American to me.

ooo-

"Would someone please explain what Obama changed that has affected Steve Wynn and his business operations since coming into office?"

Obama is letting the Bush Tax Cuts on the uber-wealthy expire, and he's talked about closing some corporate tax loopholes. Apparently, it's too much to ask Steve Wynn to pay his fair share.

"I'd respect his opinions... if he wasn't being a blatant hypocrite by doing business with the global poster child for government intervention. Go ask Google how well China stands for business and economic freedom."

Precisely! As I said above, Wynn is doing this to stay on good terms with Beijing. But as you hinted with Google, Wynn wouldn't have to do much to get on their bad side... And I'm wondering what he'll do if/when he ever starts to face the Chinese regime's full wrath.

Marty-

"Wynn's stock price has soared since Obama took office. Sure, that can be a coincidence, but in the mean time Steve is making more money than he has in years on the stock market."

No, it really isn't. Both MGM's Jim Murren AND Harrah's Jan Jones have both explained how the Recovery Act was needed to stop the economic freefall and get consumers back on their feet (which is essential for getting consumers to spend money in Las Vegas again). And while it did take a while to start working, we're now starting to see real signs of stabilization and recovery. And yes, it's proven economic reality that money spent on things like jobs programs, social services, and unemployment aid provide far more "bang for the buck" than the types of corporate tax breaks that Steve Wynn favors.

Honestly, I've mostly been a big Steve Wynn fan. He's done plenty to help Vegas. And hey, his company is union-friendly and pro-LGBTQ equality. But yes, I think I'd also have reservations about entering Wynn and Encore if he were to actually relocate corporate HQ to a country where I can't be open about who I am and where we can't freely join a union or even collectively bargain for better wages and benefits.

OK, sorry for my political ranting. I'll stop before I break this soapbox. ;-)

OK, one more thing. Just how smart would it really be to move corporate HQ to China? What are their corporate tax rates? And wouldn't this change how Wynn Resorts is taxed in the US? I'm wondering just how much Steve Wynn has thought this through, and if he really wants to open this can of worms and see what's inside.

Posted by Hunter

Just a reminder that this isn't a political board so let's be a little careful.

This isn't the right place to debate US tax policy. So far we're still tying it back to this issue, I just want to stay on track.

"I don't want to get too political, but..." Too late, every comment in this thread since kagehitokiri's has crossed that line already. Too bad. There's no design discussion here. Disappointed.

OK, non-political. Don't the arches above Encore Macau's porte cochere look like the underside of an octopus's tentacles?
http://www.macautripping.com/tripping/post.php?p=383

Yes, Detroit, rather tentacal-ly. But gorgeous.

Steve's anti-U.S. pro-China yapping is 98% PR. The Chinese people are incredibly proud and by bowing in thanks and nodding deferentially to the Chinese government while smacking U.S. policies towards China makes Steve out as being one of them NOT a guy who is preying on their cultural gambling addiction.

To know a casino mogul, you need to think like a casino mogul. The Steve loves money in the baccarat drop infinitely more than he dislikes the U.S. Federal Government.

From an economic standpoint, Wynn's not making much sense. He grumbles about White House policy w/o explaining how he'd put those coveted tax breaks to work. There's no call for new casino product in LV, so he's not going to build there. As for increased hiring, visitation numbers don't appear to justify it ... yet.

And if he's blaming the busted Philly project on Washington (after saying the cause was "internal"), Steve's really missing the boat. If it doesn't pencil out to spend $600M on a casino in Pennsylvania, it's because none of the Keystone State's sub-markets have justified that size of investment. The racinos are producing far greater bang per buck than are the slot parlors.

At least Wynn Resorts' U.S. operations needn't fear that, say, the federal government will start rationing Californians' annual number of visits to Nevada, cap the amount of gaming positions in Las Vegas or take away land on which Wynn hasn't already built. :-)

As always with the prolix Mr. Wynn, the challenge is to pick out the one thing he actually means in earnest from the four others that he doesn't. It's a great way to keep people guessing.

Hunter-

"This isn't the right place to debate US tax policy. So far we're still tying it back to this issue, I just want to stay on track."

Sorry for going a little too far. I'll try to keep my political rants over at Gleaner-ville.

Mr. Chuck-

You're definitely right about this. As I said earlier, Wynn can't afford to show any sort of disrespect toward China. If he wants to build Wynn Cotai, he'll need to stay in the Chinese regime's good graces. I just wonder if they'll actually let him start building it next year, especially with Encore Macau barely open and Macau leaders saying they want to limit casino growth.

I just don't like the lines of Encore Macau. It doesn't look like Wynn elegance. Maybe it's the cream colored borders and the lattice work up the middle.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/las-vegas-giant-expands-macau-offerings-1952125.html

Posted by mike_ch

To put a business spin on this closing political debate, I was avoiding Wynn's resorts the past few months over politics, namely his claim to start trying to politicize his workers and start up a PAC, but I'd say that Elaine Wynn has actually brought back to them.

He has his right to an opinion as an individual, of course, but so long as she is on the board and holds a substantial amount of shares, I don't think his personal opinions should be confused with the company's.

Maybe it's the economy that's getting him, maybe it's his personal life, who knows. It's clearly kind of important to Steve that he always look in control, even when his divorce dropped him behind Okada in shares.

I'm not a big fan of the Encore tower's exterior, either. However, from the few photos I've seen so far, the interiors are exceptional. Apparently Encore guests are discouraged from using the pool; if you look at the map on Wynn Macau website, it appears the only way to get to the pool is to walk out the front entrance, down a street, through the shopping mall, to an entrance next to Cafe Esplanada.

Socalduck, it's interesting that the map leads pool users outside:

http://bit.ly/acRema

There's a more efficient way through the interior. Perhaps this was to prevent dripping wet "Cousin Eddies" from walking through VIP gaming. Full property map here:

http://bit.ly/9yK43v

Encore's tower exterior is alright to me. It's nice to see something different, but i don't like the placing of the signature on the tower for some reason, especially on the back of it. However, the ground level exterior makes my mouth literally water, something that Encore in Vegas failed to do.

For anyone who's interested, I've found a video that shows more of the interior of Encore Macau: http://www.luxist.com/2010/04/22/wynn-opens-encore-at-wynn-macau/

Looks like old Steve-O is really done with the red carpets with flowers and butterflies. I think that was necessary to give the property distinction between Wynn Macau, but I still don't know how I feel about the pinkishred.

I know Roger Thomas has said Encore Macau is entirely original, but there are a lot of similarities between Cafe Encore (with the Renaissance thing going on) & the Society Cafe. The villas borrow heavily from the Tower Suites (the actual rooms) in Encore LV, but still manage to remain very distinct. The spa is equally beautiful, but on a MUCH smaller scale.
At least this gives us something new to look this time around in Macau instead of Encore in Vegas being nearly directly transfered to Encore in Macau the way Wynn was.

I haven't seen the casino, but I think Encore Macau is pretty much perfect. While not an architectural achievement, the building is very elegant, and I like the illuminated diamond pattern on the concave side. But the scale and interior design is just sublime. I think this was inline with the original concept of Encore LV, but it ELV just got too big. The original rooms were too be around 1000 sq ft, at ELV, which is consistent with Encore Macau (the EM 1000 sq.ft. version seem to work much better (except the swivel tv again). This is Wynn Tower Suites ++.

** don't let the dotted line confuse you, that is in a Rolls of course.

Also, the most important thing SW can do now, is build a truly global franchise - NY, London, Monaco, UAE, Tokyo, Paris... maybe Sydney, Cape Town, Singapore. Create physical touchpoints throughout the world, and, as skillfully as has been done in Macau, create the Wynn brand specific to that market. While these are not primary gaming markets, they create that one-to-one relationship, that is the true realm of the high end. Really, if you had the means, what better could you do at this point?

Posted by Hunter

Wynn Resorts International?

Hey, Wynn's always said that he'd love to have a boutique hotel in Manhattan. I'd love it as well. The problem is basically this, He and Roger go so far over the top, that without a casino to offset the cost, they could probably never build a hotel/resort without a casino, that could ever have a chance of being profitable. Lets face it, Wyncore LV, has a casino, and is still barely making money.

Posted by mike_ch

You can ask a lot more per square foot in Manhattan or DC or Chicago than you can in Vegas. If you don't believe me, look at these suites.

Big city real estate is such a river of gold that even Donald Trump hasn't been able to mess it up too hard.

I figured the problem with having Wynn hotels in other cities is exactly as Brian Fey stated. But hey, we can dream, can't we?

One reason I suspect that the "SW" brand idea didn't fly in Philly was that Philadelphians took it to mean, "My [Wynn] brand isn't good enough for your city." Unfortunately, with the possible (and problematic) exception of Chicago, there aren't any other major U.S. metropolitan areas into which Wynn could go and build a luxury hotel *with* a casino ... maybe Miami in five years (when the Seminole compact is open for renegotiation), which would be poetically appropriate because that's where Wynn says he was inspired to get into the resort biz.